Wealth Tier Forum OOC

[Kyreen]

I should add that I'm not against a broader range of threads to acquire extra wealth, I'm just against extra threads being the sole way to increase wealth.

I'll repost IF I can remember the details that got erased. I don't have a back up.

[Pegasus]

I should add that I'm not against a broader range of threads to acquire extra wealth, I'm just against it being the sole way to acquire wealth.

I'll repost IF I can remember the details that got erased. I don't have a back up.

So, bottom line for you is that you're anti the wealth thread being to maintain and if it progressed, you'd be happy?

And I'm sure you will remember - we've got four months before this comes out - and a lot of things still to work out. I'm hoping that everything will get ironed out as people start putting forward suggestions and working on the systems. It'll be great!

[Rei'sari]

If it would earn you money in a job thread previously, it will earn you wealth now. If she has a job and uses that job as her wealth thread, then that'll be fine. We're just changing it so that you don't have to have a job in order to earn - not restricting the people with them. Hope that puts that one at ease?

That does make me a lot happier. I think I was taking things a bit too literally with the thread having to be about using a wealth skill in a way that would earn the PC money.

A new question is this. In the past, when you bought an item, land, a weapon, and so on, that was it. But with some items being above your wealth tier, do the items themselves contribute to a PCs overall wealth? When grandfathering the new system in, property does add to the total wealth. But say after that, you bought a masterwork sword, or an acre of land. Does that figure in somehow?

Also, when buying items above your tier level, buying things 1-2 levels above your current tier was mentioned. Does that mean that buying things more than 2 levels above your tier isn't possible?

[Quio]

Some thoughts--

1.) I'm wondering how the 'using wealth points to buy items' system is going to work. I suppose I would have to have a better idea of what the wealth tiers are like to understand fully, but it seems to me that buying one item might greatly affect a PC's wealth. I know the numbers are subject to change... but as is, if a PC of average wealth splurges on a wealthy item they will lose 10 wealth points. Losing 10 points could, should the PC be on the low end of the average wealth tier, drop them from average to struggling, nearly halfway to poor.

2.) One thing I appreciated about the site was that a PC did not have to commit to a job thread (or multiple job threads) every season. The only penalty to not doing a job thread was that a PC did not earn money, which was less a penalty and more a neutral consequence. With this change in the system, a PC will have to do at least one wealth thread a season to maintain their wealth, and they won't be able to use PH's. If they don't commit to a wealth thread, they will be penalized. What happens to that person's points if they don't do a thread maintaining their wealth? Will a portion of their wealth points be taken away? If a PC doesn't do a wealth thread for one season, will they go down an entire tier in wealth?

3.) This is just an observation, but because I have always despised doing job threads so much, both of my PCs will start out destitute, and I mean like... hardly above the absolute poverty line. This amuses me more than it distresses me, but I could see why it might cause another player in a similar situation distress.

4.) Once more, I understand that the numbers are subject to change but... as is, if a PC starts out from the bottom, they will have to earn some 50 wealth points to become merely average in wealth. It doesn't seem to me that most PCs will earn more than 5-10 wealth points a season (personally, because of the way I play, I think I would earn less). And, if a PC wants more NPCs or items above their tier, they will be losing points. It just seems that this system will make it harder for PCs to increase in wealth.

5.) Considering that spending points lowers your wealth and that it seems (at least to me) that it will be harder for PCs to increase in wealth, this system seems like it might cause PCs to lose wealth more readily than they gain it.

6.) Others have mentioned this already, but since it's relevant to my PCs I will as well. I only very rarely do threads where my PCs are gaining material wealth in any manner, outside of job threads (and those I despise). As a player, I have never presumed to capitalize upon threads to increase my PCs' personal wealth. So, when my PC beats up a bad guy, I almost never assume he will get anything besides a plot out of it (my PC isn't checking pockets for gold or expensive jewelry, looting armor and weapons, stealing from locations, etc.). When my PCs do get something material out of a thread, it's usually something small (for example, a letter from an NPC, or a pocketknife), which has very little value. It just feels like, because of this new system, I'll have to be more concerned with my PCs' wealth, which I have never much had to be up until now.

In conclusion, maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, and I understand that the system is a work in progress, but it just feels like PCs are going to be penalized a lot (for owning 'too many' NPC"s, for splurging on cool stuff, for not doing wealth threads) and are not going to be rewarded much in return.

[Pegasus]

A new question is this. In the past, when you bought an item, land, a weapon, and so on, that was it. But with some items being above your wealth tier, do the items themselves contribute to a PCs overall wealth? When grandfathering the new system in, property does add to the total wealth. But say after that, you bought a masterwork sword, or an acre of land. Does that figure in somehow?

Yes, definitely! We are still trying to work out how to gf in, but we'll be doing it in a way that's fair to the PC. I really want to avoid having to look at every single pc individually, so I'd like to get a formula - but if looking individually is what we have to do, it's what we'll do.

Also, when buying items above your tier level, buying things 1-2 levels above your current tier was mentioned. Does that mean that buying things more than 2 levels above your tier isn't possible?

That's probably a bit too specific for right now - keep in mind this system isn't finished, very much a skeleton. My instinct is that it will depend on the type of "thing". Food? Almost certainly possible. Weapons? Hmmm... maybe but at a high cost. Houses? No. But that's a question for a bit later down the line

1.) I'm wondering how the 'using wealth points to buy items' system is going to work. I suppose I would have to have a better idea of what the wealth tiers are like to understand fully, but it seems to me that buying one item might greatly affect a PC's wealth. I know the numbers are subject to change... but as is, if a PC of average wealth splurges on a wealthy item they will lose 10 wealth points. Losing 10 points could, should the PC be on the low end of the average wealth tier, drop them from average to struggling, nearly halfway to poor.

Yes - and whilst that might be true if they bought a.. I don't know - piece of jewelry, it isn't going to happen if they buy ... grapes. The price list is going to have to be looked at in relation to that and each section considered individually.

Fundamentally, what we're going to have to do is look at each item first, and assign it a tier. THEN - look at each section and work out
- the number of items from there you can have at your level (so if you can afford the best wine, you can probably afford a case - food will be the one that you can most of it. But if you can afford a masterwork weapon - it'll still be identified that you can't outfit a small army with them.)
- what cost in WPs it'll be to buy stuff above your level in that section - and how many things you'll get.
Honestly, I imagine the numbers will change. But the purpose of it was to illustrate that, the more you buy outside of what you can afford, the sooner you're going to be broke.

2.) One thing I appreciated about the site was that a PC did not have to commit to a job thread (or multiple job threads) every season. The only penalty to not doing a job thread was that a PC did not earn money, which was less a penalty and more a neutral consequence. With this change in the system, a PC will have to do at least one wealth thread a season to maintain their wealth, and they won't be able to use PH's. If they don't commit to a wealth thread, they will be penalized. What happens to that person's points if they don't do a thread maintaining their wealth? Will a portion of their wealth points be taken away? If a PC doesn't do a wealth thread for one season, will they go down an entire tier in wealth?

The idea here is that almost any thread can be a wealth thread - it's a focus on story. So, when Hart stayed and pretended to be Tristan -t hat'd be a wealth thread. That kind of thing? The definition of a "wealth thread" is very broad.
Also - the idea is that you'd lose (I think last suggestion was 2) Wealth Points on any season you don't do a Wealth Thread. So, unless you're on the cusp, you won't notice a difference.

But I'd CERTAINLY be ok with someone doing a PH for their Wealth Thread. The point there is that you don't get MORE Wealth Points that season until you've done your Wealth Thread. But that's certainly something we can discuss.

3.) This is just an observation, but because I have always despised doing job threads so much, both of my PCs will start out destitute, and I mean like... hardly above the absolute poverty line. This amuses me more than it distresses me, but I could see why it might cause another player in a similar situation distress.

We are really committed to making sure that the existing PCs get put across to a wealth tier that is indicative of their current wealth level. So, we'll want to take all of that into account. Your PC lifestyle should not change. We're determined it won't. We just need to get it right for all- which is why opening it up to discuss and work together now is the plan

4.) Once more, I understand that the numbers are subject to change but... as is, if a PC starts out from the bottom, they will have to earn some 50 wealth points to become merely average in wealth. It doesn't seem to me that most PCs will earn more than 5-10 wealth points a season (personally, because of the way I play, I think I would earn less). And, if a PC wants more NPCs or items above their tier, they will be losing points. It just seems that this system will make it harder for PCs to increase in wealth.

I think that's something we've still got to work through properly. To give an idea - we've got 3 1/2 months before this goes live - the aim would be to get the systems down in their next draft - and then test them with examples - if they don't work, redraft etc. If what you say there turns out to be the case when we get to doing the "Ok. So, PC X does this in Ymiden, that in Saun" examples - then it is the exact OPPOSITE of what we want, and we'll change the numbers around.

5.) Considering that spending points lowers your wealth and that it seems (at least to me) that it will be harder for PCs to increase in wealth, this system seems like it might cause PCs to lose wealth more readily than they gain it.

See answer to 4.

6.) Others have mentioned this already, but since it's relevant to my PCs I will as well. I only very rarely do threads where my PCs are gaining material wealth in any manner, outside of job threads (and those I despise). As a player, I have never presumed to capitalize upon threads to increase my PCs' personal wealth. So, when my PC beats up a bad guy, I almost never assume he will get anything besides a plot out of it (my PC isn't checking pockets for gold or expensive jewelry, looting armor and weapons, stealing from locations, etc.). When my PCs do get something material out of a thread, it's usually something small (for example, a letter from an NPC, or a pocketknife), which has very little value. It just feels like, because of this new system, I'll have to be more concerned with my PCs' wealth, which I have never much had to be up until now.

You know - I think / hope / believe that the opposite will happen. And I think this will be key to how we implement this in reviews. If you do a thread where you beat up some bad guys - when you put in your review request, you literally have to think "could he have gotten a gain from this? Yes. Ok." And write "Yes" next to "Considered for Wealth Point?" then the reviewers do or do not give it. So, you don't have to think about "what" it was - you won't need to worry about it being "I'm asking for 300gn. Is that too much?" but that beating up the bad guys could be your Wealth Thread or a Wealth Point getting thread. You won't need to worry about it more - just look at the story and ask - might that increase his wealth in some way?

In conclusion, maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, and I understand that the system is a work in progress, but it just feels like PCs are going to be penalized a lot (for owning 'too many' NPC"s, for splurging on cool stuff, for not doing wealth threads) and are not going to be rewarded much in return.

That is the exact opposite of what we want it to be. I believe it's the opposite of what it is - but I know that by the time we get there it won't be that. Because that is not what we're doing here. As I said, it's going to take the time to pin it all down - then do test runs and stuff.

But you know - we've got talented and thoughtful players who come up with great points. We just need to turn that now into working together to make it what we all want it to be. A move away from focusing on ledgers and coppers and whether my dress is made from taffeta or chiffon and how many yaks I can buy for one large, trained dog (personal pet peeve there!) - and actually, lets get to looking at "what lifestyle does my pc have, how does his / her skills impact on that - what great stories can I tell and how do those stories impact my wealth?"

I would just ask that, as players, you keep in mind that we would never, normally, throw a system out like this - we've been talking about it for months, but it needs a lot of work still. This isn't a "here's the system, live with it" - it's "here's the system as far as we have it. Can we work together on it?" - we've already had one player sign up to help and another who's helping already . Lets work together, make it great.

I hope that answers the questions as much as they can be answered, so far.

The way I see it now we need to address the following:

1. Is the Wealth Thread going to maintain or increase the Wealth Points? If it's increase - then how much?
2. Look at the "Number of Wealth Points per Tier" and "number of wealth points per thread"

If anyone would like to volunteer to work on that with a couple of others - I think we could get a good group together there. Especially point 2. Maths. <shudder>

[Quio]

Fundamentally, what we're going to have to do is look at each item first, and assign it a tier. THEN - look at each section and work out
- the number of items from there you can have at your level (so if you can afford the best wine, you can probably afford a case - food will be the one that you can most of it. But if you can afford a masterwork weapon - it'll still be identified that you can't outfit a small army with them.)
- what cost in WPs it'll be to buy stuff above your level in that section - and how many things you'll get.
Honestly, I imagine the numbers will change. But the purpose of it was to illustrate that, the more you buy outside of what you can afford, the sooner you're going to be broke.

This seems complicated, woof. Going through and assigning a tier to each item on the price list, that is. If it helps at all, going through the professions list might add insight to which items need to be in what tier. For example-- at what tier should a farmer have access to a variety of tools, seeds, and farming animals? At what tier should a sailor have access to a larger ship, or to new sails? At what tier should a seamstress have access to the most expensive cloths; or a smith to the most expensive smithing materials? That might help determine what needs to be where, some.

What might also add insight is the tiers themselves. What basic items are needed for someone who is in absolute poverty to live? Do they have access to enough funds to live at an inn, or are they on the streets? If they are on the streets, what quality of food are they eating? What quality of clothing do they wear?

The idea here is that almost any thread can be a wealth thread - it's a focus on story. So, when Hart stayed and pretended to be Tristan -t hat'd be a wealth thread. That kind of thing? The definition of a "wealth thread" is very broad.
Also - the idea is that you'd lose (I think last suggestion was 2) Wealth Points on any season you don't do a Wealth Thread. So, unless you're on the cusp, you won't notice a difference.

But I'd CERTAINLY be ok with someone doing a PH for their Wealth Thread. The point there is that you don't get MORE Wealth Points that season until you've done your Wealth Thread. But that's certainly something we can discuss.

Ah okay, I see. I was thinking, before, that not a lot had changed when it came to wealth threads vs job threads. Because we still had to do a thread that required a certain skill. But what has changed is that the wealth skill is able to be designated season to season. So one season (as you said, when Hart was pretending to be Tristan) Hart's wealth skill might be politics. But the next season (after he's done pretending) it might be something else, as long as he uses it in a wealth thread.

Would players not have to apply for certain jobs then? What about for wages-- if, instead of wages, they recieve points?

It might make sense for a character's 'main' wealth thread to be awarded a cumulative bonus (so, their first 'main' wealth thread might earn them 1 wealth point, then their next 2, and on and on). And their 'supplementary' wealth threads (any wealth thread beyond the 'main' one, per season) would just award 1 point each. Special threads, like modded threads and maybe bounties, could be awarded whatever number of points are appropriate. And like someone said, players who use their designated wealth skill for a whole year (instead of designating a new wealth skill season to season) could get a yearly bonus.

You know - I think / hope / believe that the opposite will happen. And I think this will be key to how we implement this in reviews. If you do a thread where you beat up some bad guys - when you put in your review request, you literally have to think "could he have gotten a gain from this? Yes. Ok." And write "Yes" next to "Considered for Wealth Point?" then the reviewers do or do not give it. So, you don't have to think about "what" it was - you won't need to worry about it being "I'm asking for 300gn. Is that too much?" but that beating up the bad guys could be your Wealth Thread or a Wealth Point getting thread. You won't need to worry about it more - just look at the story and ask - might that increase his wealth in some way?

That makes sense.

How would it work, exactly, for specific rewards? Could those still be requested? For instance, if Quio took back a ring that had been stolen from him, amongst other unspecified items-- could I request the specific ring, and a wealth point? Could players only request specific items within their tier of wealth? Or would it be an either / or sort of system (a player can request a specific item, or a wealth point)? Regardless of their tier, players would probably still be able to be rewarded higher-tiered items in modded threads or PSF-approved threads.

Or would specific items, as long as they're within a PC's tier of wealth, not even need to be requested?

The way I see it now we need to address the following:

1. Is the Wealth Thread going to maintain or increase the Wealth Points? If it's increase - then how much?
2. Look at the "Number of Wealth Points per Tier" and "number of wealth points per thread"

If anyone would like to volunteer to work on that with a couple of others - I think we could get a good group together there. Especially point 2. Maths. <shudder>

Probably 2 should come before 1, since the tier system pretty much dictates all else.

The tier system as is --not the specific numbers when it comes to wealth points, but the tiers themselves-- do we have any idea what number of tiers we want? It helps to know how many tiers are wanted / needed. The current system has five. The new tier system suggests 10.

EDIT: Sorry if some of these suggestions should not have been in the OOC, but the suggestions thread.

[Rei'sari]

That's probably a bit too specific for right now - keep in mind this system isn't finished, very much a skeleton. My instinct is that it will depend on the type of "thing". Food? Almost certainly possible. Weapons? Hmmm... maybe but at a high cost. Houses? No. But that's a question for a bit later down the line

Well, yes.I was thinking more along the lines of someone being at one wealth level, say average. They get a windfall of some sort, and use it for a fancy meal well above their usual means. Or a fancy dress they would never usually be able to afford. Or a rare book. Even a piece of jewelry. A one time purchase covered by said windfall. Not something like a huge estate or a war steed that will require continued upkeep fees (food for a war steed, etc.) that the PC wouldn't be able to afford.

[Pegasus]

This seems complicated, woof. Going through and assigning a tier to each item on the price list, that is. If it helps at all, going through the professions list might add insight to which items need to be in what tier. For example-- at what tier should a farmer have access to a variety of tools, seeds, and farming animals? At what tier should a sailor have access to a larger ship, or to new sails? At what tier should a seamstress have access to the most expensive cloths; or a smith to the most expensive smithing materials? That might help determine what needs to be where, some.

Yep - that's more or less where we're thinking of going. I mean - to give you an idea of where we're at have a look at this thread - the second post there has a link to some of the pages on the wiki that aren't yet linked anywhere cos they're not live - but this one is as far as I've gotten today with a first draft of the tiers.

What might also add insight is the tiers themselves. What basic items are needed for someone who is in absolute poverty to live? Do they have access to enough funds to live at an inn, or are they on the streets? If they are on the streets, what quality of food are they eating? What quality of clothing do they wear?

Yep - all stuff needing to be fleshed out - and one of the things that it would be great to get collaborative working on.

Ah okay, I see. I was thinking, before, that not a lot had changed when it came to wealth threads vs job threads. Because we still had to do a thread that required a certain skill. But what has changed is that the wealth skill is able to be designated season to season. So one season (as you said, when Hart was pretending to be Tristan) Hart's wealth skill might be politics. But the next season (after he's done pretending) it might be something else, as long as he uses it in a wealth thread.

Yep!

Would players not have to apply for certain jobs then? What about for wages-- if, instead of wages, they recieve points?

Nope - no applying for jobs, no applying for wages. No more maths!

It might make sense for a character's 'main' wealth thread to be awarded a cumulative bonus (so, their first 'main' wealth thread might earn them 1 wealth point, then their next 2, and on and on). And their 'supplementary' wealth threads (any wealth thread beyond the 'main' one, per season) would just award 1 point each. Special threads, like modded threads and maybe bounties, could be awarded whatever number of points are appropriate. And like someone said, players who use their designated wealth skill for a whole year (instead of designating a new wealth skill season to season) could get a yearly bonus.

Oh - so like... +1 WP per cumulative season? I like that idea! I like quite a few of the ideas you've put here - and whether I like them or not isn't relevant, but any and all ideas like this - lets have discussions about them - or put them in the thoughts / ideas suggestions, would you? I'd hate to lose them in the rush of posts here.

How would it work, exactly, for specific rewards? Could those still be requested? For instance, if Quio took back a ring that had been stolen from him, amongst other unspecified items-- could I request the specific ring, and a wealth point? Could players only request specific items within their tier of wealth? Or would it be an either / or sort of system (a player can request a specific item, or a wealth point)? Regardless of their tier, players would probably still be able to be rewarded higher-tiered items in modded threads or PSF-approved threads.

Ok - some of these are a bit specific for where we are in the development of this. But..
Yes, you could still request specific rewards
Yes, you could request the ring + wealth point - this is something that I think we'll need guidelines on though - awarding loot and wealth - for reviewers.
Yep - modded threads will be mods discretion. PSF approved, too.

Or would specific items, as long as they're within a PC's tier of wealth, not even need to be requested?

If you've got the wealth tier to have the item, how you got it isn't an issue.

Probably 2 should come before 1, since the tier system pretty much dictates all else.

The tier system as is --not the specific numbers when it comes to wealth points, but the tiers themselves-- do we have any idea what number of tiers we want? It helps to know how many tiers are wanted / needed. The current system has five. The new tier system suggests 10.

EDIT: Sorry if some of these suggestions should not have been in the OOC, but the suggestions thread.

No worries on the ooc / suggestion. We just need to keep in mind and not lose good suggestions. And the tiers as they stand (still very much subject to change on testing) are here

Well, yes.I was thinking more along the lines of someone being at one wealth level, say average. They get a windfall of some sort, and use it for a fancy meal well above their usual means. Or a fancy dress they would never usually be able to afford. Or a rare book. Even a piece of jewelry. A one time purchase covered by said windfall. Not something like a huge estate or a war steed that will require continued upkeep fees (food for a war steed, etc.) that the PC wouldn't be able to afford.

I can very much see that kind of thing happening - either through the spending of your own wealth points - or being given it by a mod. Fundamentally - if you've got wealth points to spend, you've got a windfall. Like having coins to spend now? Nothing in that regard is changing

[Kyreen]

Any idea how money will convert if you haven't got a round number in the thousands? Do you get partial points? Round up? Round down?

For example, a PC has 1800 gn, is that 1 Wealth point because only 1 complete thousand? 1.8 points? Rounded up to 2 points?

[Pegasus]

Any idea how money will convert if you haven't got a round number in the thousands? Do you get partial points? Round up? Round down?

For example, a PC has 1800 gn, is that 1 Wealth point because only 1 complete thousand? 1.8 points? Rounded up to 2 points?

For existing PCs we'll always err on the side of being generous. So, we'll be rounding up