Feedback Thread.

[Hart]

That brings up an interesting point.

Are we still going to implement a land to animal ratio (1.5 or 2 acres to 1 large animal)? I was under the impression that by doing away with animal upkeep we were doing away with any sort of ratio, but I guess that was just my perception.

[Pegasus]

That brings up an interesting point.

Are we still going to implement a land to animal ratio (1.5 or 2 acres to 1 large animal)? I was under the impression that by doing away with animal upkeep we were doing away with any sort of ratio, but I guess that was just my perception.

That was my perception, too.

[Lei'lira]

I also really like the idea of not having to pay for animal feed.

[Pegasus]

Ok - so I've been following this and I decided that it was time to get my beeeee-hind in gear and get started on the Wealth System and Businesses.

Therefore: this

I haven't put in the numbers yet - but I'm thinking that the "Wealth Differential" will determine whether there's a cost to setting up a business, and how much. Business management will also be a modifier.

Then, depending on what the Differential is when running will determine HOW MANY PCs have to come in and buy stuff for you to be given a Wealth Point. Because it occurred to me that you could just sell stuff that's cheap as chips and that's not likely to impact the Wealth Tier of a Tier 9 pc, for example.

But before I get into the numbers (and if anyone wants to help - very gratefully received!!!) what do you think??

[Quio]

I like the concept but as always I have a few notes and questions (which, of course, you can feel free answer at your leisure-- I know not all the details are settled).

1. I don't think +1wp per purchase thread is enough. Any PC can earn +1wp for additional wealth-earning threads, so there should probably be some distinction for business-owning PCs, even if it's only +2wp instead of +1.

2. I think probably all businesses regardless of their tier differential should have some sort of startup cost, but that's just me.

3. I'm interested in why the startup wealth differential is between -6 and +7. Basically I'm just curious why those numbers, and why the restriction? I can't remember if there are restrictions on what wealth tiers a PC can start with, so maybe it has to do with that?

4. As is, the WIP doesn't explain what impact current wealth differential has on a business. Does it have to do with the amount of wp a PC has to reinvest into the business per season, cycle, or arc? Or does it perhaps relate to something else?

5. I can try and help with the math but I'm curious as to whether or not the startup tables should be more nuanced? I get the concept of the startup wealth differential (-6 means that someone on either wealth tiers 1, 2, 3, or 4 are doing business with clients on tiers 7, 8, 9, or 10). But should someone who is at tier 1 have to pay as much to start a business as someone on tier 4? With the table as is, it seems like they would have to.

I guess that just means that if you want to keep the startup tables as they are (instead of, say, having a business' startup costs be linked to both wealth differential and a PC's personal wealth tier) that we have to make sure that PCs on the lowest tier in that differential will be able to pay (or set up a system to pay, such as a loan) the startup costs.

6. Will a PC business only be able to cater to one wealth tier? If so, will only PCs of that tier be able to engage with that PC business? Or will, for example, a PC business with a wealth differential of +3 (with tier 4 being their 'differential-setting tier' (ie the business owner is tier 7 and their customers tier 4)) be able to sell to any tier (but with the assumption that most of their customers are from tier 4)?

Sorry if that last question was confusing. ^_^'

[Pegasus]

I like the concept but as always I have a few notes and questions (which, of course, you can feel free answer at your leisure-- I know not all the details are settled).

I love you - and I love your questions. Thank you!!!

1. I don't think +1wp per purchase thread is enough. Any PC can earn +1wp for additional wealth-earning threads, so there should probably be some distinction for business-owning PCs, even if it's only +2wp instead of +1.

I tend to agree, but think this is deal-able with at the end of the process, so we can see what we're doing?

2. I think probably all businesses regardless of their tier differential should have some sort of startup cost, but that's just me.

Really? So someone at Wealth Tier 10 couldn't set up a charity shop out of their personal wealth? Or a cart peddling potions?

3. I'm interested in why the startup wealth differential is between -6 and +7. Basically I'm just curious why those numbers, and why the restriction? I can't remember if there are restrictions on what wealth tiers a PC can start with, so maybe it has to do with that?

So... LOL - this might be my bad math. I put it at -6 because I thought if someone wanted to set up a business, then they'd have to be at least Wealth Tier 4, or they wouldn't get the loan needed etc - so with 10 being the max Tier, I did that.
And... there was a similar logic for the 7. But I don't entirely remember it....

4. As is, the WIP doesn't explain what impact current wealth differential has on a business. Does it have to do with the amount of wp a PC has to reinvest into the business per season, cycle, or arc? Or does it perhaps relate to something else?

So - the idea was that.. (forgive me, I'm explaining this badly)
If I'm a lot lower in my Tier than my clients, then presumably, the money they bring in to me when they make a purchase is going to be greater, and so will impact my personal wealth more.
If I'm a lot higher - the reverse.

Make sense? So this will determine HOW MANY Wealth Points you get per PC-PC transaction.

5. I can try and help with the math but I'm curious as to whether or not the startup tables should be more nuanced? I get the concept of the startup wealth differential (-6 means that someone on either wealth tiers 1, 2, 3, or 4 are doing business with clients on tiers 7, 8, 9, or 10). But should someone who is at tier 1 have to pay as much to start a business as someone on tier 4? With the table as is, it seems like they would have to.

I'd love them to be. But I have trouble understanding them as they are. Any help with nuance, gratefully received!

I guess that just means that if you want to keep the startup tables as they are (instead of, say, having a business' startup costs be linked to both wealth differential and a PC's personal wealth tier) that we have to make sure that PCs on the lowest tier in that differential will be able to pay (or set up a system to pay, such as a loan) the startup costs.

6. Will a PC business only be able to cater to one wealth tier? If so, will only PCs of that tier be able to engage with that PC business? Or will, for example, a PC business with a wealth differential of +3 (with tier 4 being their 'differential-setting tier' (ie the business owner is tier 7 and their customers tier 4)) be able to sell to any tier (but with the assumption that most of their customers are from tier 4)?

Very much the latter scenario. And also, I thought it was important for players too - like... Faith owns a clothing boutique. It's exclusive, it's expensive, etc. If a player is going to buy a dress there, they need to know that.

Does that help?

[Kyreen]

5. I can try and help with the math but I'm curious as to whether or not the startup tables should be more nuanced? I get the concept of the startup wealth differential (-6 means that someone on either wealth tiers 1, 2, 3, or 4 are doing business with clients on tiers 7, 8, 9, or 10). But should someone who is at tier 1 have to pay as much to start a business as someone on tier 4? With the table as is, it seems like they would have to.

I'd love them to be. But I have trouble understanding them as they are. Any help with nuance, gratefully received!

I guess that just means that if you want to keep the startup tables as they are (instead of, say, having a business' startup costs be linked to both wealth differential and a PC's personal wealth tier) that we have to make sure that PCs on the lowest tier in that differential will be able to pay (or set up a system to pay, such as a loan) the startup costs.

Nuance - so maybe a base price to set up a business and then add the differential to it in reverse, with a minimum cost of 1 WP? And include the option to change tier later so that people who can't afford the full price to start with can do it bit by bit? (I think setting a minimum cost, but everyone paying something is like to feel fairer and cause less unhappiness, even if a tier 10 player is hardly going to notice spending 1 WP out of so many)

Example: X is currently tier 3. He can set up a business catering to his own tier for base price, or tier 4 for base price + 1, or tier 2 for base price - 1 etc.

[Quio]

I tend to agree, but think this is deal-able with at the end of the process, so we can see what we're doing?

Yep, that's fine. ^_^

Really? So someone at Wealth Tier 10 couldn't set up a charity shop out of their personal wealth? Or a cart peddling potions?

I guess to me it's like... regardless of what you're selling and at what price and quality and to whom, and also regardless of the circumstances in which your business has been set up, it still probably costs something to set up a business. Whether the cost of that business could be inferred to be for the building / premises, stock, time and effort spent organizing it, advertising, and interviewing employees or volunteers, or even the cost of a business permit from the city, it seems to me like there should be some initial cost of set up. You know, invest a little to get more back. But like I said, that's just me. And since I've never had a PC with a business, I could be totally wrong.

It also depends on how much we're going to decide it costs to set up the average business. If it's a lot of wp, then I could see giving a break to players to encourage them to set up PC businesses and to make the game more playable.

So... LOL - this might be my bad math. I put it at -6 because I thought if someone wanted to set up a business, then they'd have to be at least Wealth Tier 4, or they wouldn't get the loan needed etc - so with 10 being the max Tier, I did that.
And... there was a similar logic for the 7. But I don't entirely remember it....

I guess I might be out of the loop on this one. If a PC cannot get a loan until they're a certain wealth tier (wealth tier 4 like you said?), then I do agree that the -6 makes sense. (EDIT: Though does that imply that players lower than tier 4 can't start businesses?) I guess I didn't realize that there were tier limitations placed on loans.

I still don't know about the +7 restriction, but lol, I don't know about a lot of things so I guess we'll leave it as is, for now.

So - the idea was that.. (forgive me, I'm explaining this badly)
If I'm a lot lower in my Tier than my clients, then presumably, the money they bring in to me when they make a purchase is going to be greater, and so will impact my personal wealth more.
If I'm a lot higher - the reverse.

Make sense? So this will determine HOW MANY Wealth Points you get per PC-PC transaction.

That makes perfect sense. I like it.

Question-- Will players be required to reinvest into their businesses? I believe reinvestment was part of the old system, but like I said my PCs have never had a business so I'm not entirely sure how it works or what we want to improve / get rid of going forward.

Very much the latter scenario. And also, I thought it was important for players too - like... Faith owns a clothing boutique. It's exclusive, it's expensive, etc. If a player is going to buy a dress there, they need to know that.

Does that help?

Yes, thank you. ^_^

This makes me curious how player businesses are going to interact with the wealth tier system and the price list / wealth tiers themselves. So if Faith has an exclusive boutique, selling mainly to customers on wealth tier... 9, let's say. Will Faith as a player have to set prices which every player regardless of wealth tier will have to pay, or will it refer to the price list? Since a player on a lower wealth tier wouldn't have automatic access to a tier 9 boutique, by price list / wealth tier rules they would have to pay wp out of pocket to buy something there. But since a player on wealth tier 9 would automatically have access to a certain amount of tier 9 clothing, if they went to Faith's business would they not have to pay wp then? Or rather-- when selecting the tier 9 clothing given to them by that tier could they say 'This is from Faith's boutique'? And if they did, but they didn't do a shopping thread (which, to be honest, I as a player rarely do) would it still count towards Faith getting wp out of her business?

Should PCs have a location thread set up for their businesses (especially businesses that work like shops) where players can simply drop in and say 'my tier 9 clothing came from Faith's boutique?' Or would each player have to individually interact with Faith in a separate thread for her to earn a bonus?

Also, could a PC price their goods or services at above or below price list standard?

And since I just thought of it-- uh, are we including services on the price list? Like, for example, how much it would cost to get clothes mended? Or how much it would cost to hire a tutor or an investigator or someone marked by the immortals for a specific skill? Or like, to rent things... venues or caravans or ships, etc?

Nuance - so maybe a base price to set up a business and then add the differential to it in reverse, with a minimum cost of 1 WP? And include the option to change tier later so that people who can't afford the full price to start with can do it bit by bit? (I think setting a minimum cost, but everyone paying something is like to feel fairer and cause less unhappiness, even if a tier 10 player is hardly going to notice spending 1 WP out of so many)

Example: X is currently tier 3. He can set up a business catering to his own tier for base price, or tier 4 for base price + 1, or tier 2 for base price - 1 etc.

That makes sense, we could definitely try and include it, see how it goes.

Speaking of, does anyone want me (or anyone else who is interested) to start trying to put together numbers for this? I don't know if there's a 'base' cost of having a business that I (or others) should try to start with-- say, that a business should cost a base 5wp at tier 5, or a certain percentage based on the wealth tiers and wp.

Or if we should just come up with numbers as we see fit and have them adjusted as needed?

[Lei'lira]

I have a question that has some connections to Quio's question #6. How would you determine a wealth differential for a business that has a wide variety of clients?

For example, I will eventually be trying to set up Lei's farm as a horse breeding business. People who are able to afford a horse and the land or feed needed to support it can buy one. But there's a big difference in value between an average riding or cart pulling horse, and a horse or exceptional beauty, or one fast enough to be a race horse, strong/steady enough to be trained as a war horse, etc. Or even between some breeds, and/or a mixed breed. I am also planning for her to develop a breed IC, and a new breed of her own creation would also likely be worth more than the average horse.

So someone from tier 4 can likely buy a common riding/cart horse from her, but someone might need to be tier 6 or higher to buy better quality horses from her.

[Pegasus]

I guess to me it's like... regardless of what you're selling and at what price and quality and to whom, and also regardless of the circumstances in which your business has been set up, it still probably costs something to set up a business. Whether the cost of that business could be inferred to be for the building / premises, stock, time and effort spent organizing it, advertising, and interviewing employees or volunteers, or even the cost of a business permit from the city, it seems to me like there should be some initial cost of set up. You know, invest a little to get more back. But like I said, that's just me. And since I've never had a PC with a business, I could be totally wrong.

It also depends on how much we're going to decide it costs to set up the average business. If it's a lot of wp, then I could see giving a break to players to encourage them to set up PC businesses and to make the game more playable.

Nuance - so maybe a base price to set up a business and then add the differential to it in reverse, with a minimum cost of 1 WP? And include the option to change tier later so that people who can't afford the full price to start with can do it bit by bit? (I think setting a minimum cost, but everyone paying something is like to feel fairer and cause less unhappiness, even if a tier 10 player is hardly going to notice spending 1 WP out of so many)

Example: X is currently tier 3. He can set up a business catering to his own tier for base price, or tier 4 for base price + 1, or tier 2 for base price - 1 etc.

Ok - so taking both of these into account - yeah - I see that. So there is ALWAYS a set up cost. What that is might be relative, but there should be one. Got it.

I guess I might be out of the loop on this one. If a PC cannot get a loan until they're a certain wealth tier (wealth tier 4 like you said?), then I do agree that the -6 makes sense. (EDIT: Though does that imply that players lower than tier 4 can't start businesses?) I guess I didn't realize that there were tier limitations placed on loans.

I guess that was just my assumption, to be honest, that - if you are THAT poor, you're not going to be starting a business. But no, there's no limit. So - yes, we need to open it out more.

I still don't know about the +7 restriction, but lol, I don't know about a lot of things so I guess we'll leave it as is, for now.

I think that came from the reverse logic of the -6. So perhaps we should go with -10 to +10?

So - the idea was that.. (forgive me, I'm explaining this badly)
If I'm a lot lower in my Tier than my clients, then presumably, the money they bring in to me when they make a purchase is going to be greater, and so will impact my personal wealth more.
If I'm a lot higher - the reverse.

Make sense? So this will determine HOW MANY Wealth Points you get per PC-PC transaction.

That makes perfect sense. I like it.

Huzzah!

Question-- Will players be required to reinvest into their businesses? I believe reinvestment was part of the old system, but like I said my PCs have never had a business so I'm not entirely sure how it works or what we want to improve / get rid of going forward.

Well, I like the idea, in principle and yes, that was part of the old system. It used to be that you could reinvest by doing another thread, and that brought in more money. I'd like to keep all the old / currently existing options as far as possible - but I also am not entirely sure how to do it in a way which fits. Any thoughts?

This makes me curious how player businesses are going to interact with the wealth tier system and the price list / wealth tiers themselves. So if Faith has an exclusive boutique, selling mainly to customers on wealth tier... 9, let's say. Will Faith as a player have to set prices which every player regardless of wealth tier will have to pay, or will it refer to the price list? Since a player on a lower wealth tier wouldn't have automatic access to a tier 9 boutique, by price list / wealth tier rules they would have to pay wp out of pocket to buy something there. But since a player on wealth tier 9 would automatically have access to a certain amount of tier 9 clothing, if they went to Faith's business would they not have to pay wp then? Or rather-- when selecting the tier 9 clothing given to them by that tier could they say 'This is from Faith's boutique'? And if they did, but they didn't do a shopping thread (which, to be honest, I as a player rarely do) would it still count towards Faith getting wp out of her business?

Ok. So. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. I have a gazillion thoughts rushing round my head. So, forgive me if I'm not 100% clear.
I picture it as Faith will have to list what the minimum and maximum items are available there, which is to an extent determined by her skill, of course. So, currently, she has probably what I'd say is WT6 - 10 with an emphasis on 8, 9 and 10.

Should PCs have a location thread set up for their businesses (especially businesses that work like shops) where players can simply drop in and say 'my tier 9 clothing came from Faith's boutique?' Or would each player have to individually interact with Faith in a separate thread for her to earn a bonus?

I think for a PC business yes - there would have to be a thread (either location or interaction thread) and players drop in, do one post if needs be. But, hopefully, that's an opportunity to interact and, therefore, hopefully, threadage?

Also, could a PC price their goods or services at above or below price list standard?

Yes - but we'd have to include a note there, I think that - if they do then they a) need to make that very explicitly clear in the thread - and... the city prophet would need to have a hand in that to determine the impact on wealth.

And since I just thought of it-- uh, are we including services on the price list? Like, for example, how much it would cost to get clothes mended? Or how much it would cost to hire a tutor or an investigator or someone marked by the immortals for a specific skill? Or like, to rent things... venues or caravans or ships, etc?

Ergh. Yeah. I guess yeah?

Speaking of, does anyone want me (or anyone else who is interested) to start trying to put together numbers for this? I don't know if there's a 'base' cost of having a business that I (or others) should try to start with-- say, that a business should cost a base 5wp at tier 5, or a certain percentage based on the wealth tiers and wp.

Or if we should just come up with numbers as we see fit and have them adjusted as needed?

I would be delighted if you wouldn't mind having a go - really, truly, genuinely, delighted!