Non-Domain Magic: Q and A

[Pegasus]

Questions!

Any questions about the new non-spark magic, feel free to pop em here. We will then answer them and either:

1. Link you to where it says that.
2. Add in that information somewhere and THEN link you

Ask away

[Illuvia]

I don't really know how to phrase my question... but do the knowledges count for the skill?

For instance, if I were learning thru meditation I'm going to end up with a bunch of knowledge like:
Contemplation: <name of magic>
Arcane Saturation: <name of magic>

Would these count as "Meditation" knowledges for the sake of progressing the Meditation skill?

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Are there limits to how many different kinds of magic you can learn via these new methods?
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my other question would be... if we wanted to swap from a spark to non-spark mage, we just have to go through the process of learning it using one of the three non-magic skills? Then evict the spark out of our bodies?

[Pig Boy]

I don't really know how to phrase my question... but do the knowledges count for the skill?

For instance, if I were learning thru meditation I'm going to end up with a bunch of knowledge like:
Contemplation: <name of magic>
Arcane Saturation: <name of magic>

Would these count as "Meditation" knowledges for the sake of progressing the Meditation skill?

Yes they would count as meditation knowledges.

Are there limits to how many different kinds of magic you can learn via these new methods?

From The Non-Spark Magic write-up, under Skills:

"You can only have one "type" of any given magic (eg: you can't have a spark and a non-spark Rupturing) at any given time. However, you can have 4 magics, each learned a different way. (spark Rupturing, non-spark Hone, Glamour, Graft)."

So the soft cap of four is still in effect for all magics overall.

my other question would be... if we wanted to swap from a spark to non-spark mage, we just have to go through the process of learning it using one of the three non-magic skills? Then evict the spark out of our bodies?

To be honest, the whole spark-to non-spark is still being discussed, mostly with regards to the eviction of a spark from one's soul and how/when that is accomplished in relation to non-spark magic learning. But in any case, however a spark is ejected, one must then learn through the methods provided to Research'Meditation/Ensorcelling skills in order to regain the magic through that method.

[Netzach Embersoul]

Okay this is actually very cool, and I have a ton of questions.

1) How would this play out lore wise? Would the players each individually figure out on their own that non-spark magic is possible and then try out the theory? Or is there going to be a site-wide plot about the first non-spark mages rising up. Non-spark magic would definitely shift the balance of power accross Idalos and I am excited to see what happens regardless.

2) Thematically how would it preserve the balance of magic? Currently Magic stands in a unique position as it grants great personal power at the expense of great personal risk. From my reading of the write up, it feels as if Non-spark magic is more or less the same, but without all the risks and hazards associated with Spark magic. The major downside I suppose, is that they cannot overstep and force themselves to cast a spell when they are in a pinch, but this feels outweighed by no mutations, the ability to reveal and never overstep.

2b) My first reaction to seeing the upsides and downsides of non-spark magic is the actual cost of getting there, the IC plot threads and personal risks that would be associated in trying to obtain sparkless magic. I assume that the questing for non-spark magic will be just as risky as Spark Initiation? Additionally, what would the PSF involvement look like? Would these threads be solo or with Storyteller involvement.

3) Finally what would the skill to magic skill transfer look like? Would a Meditative Mind-Mage (accidental alliteration) who gains their magic at expert, be expert level in their chosen Domain? Since certain utilization of the magics requires knowledge, would they essentially be an expert level mage in the basic powers but novice level in terms of what they can actually do, the utlization.

Edit: 4) How would this magic interact with Alchemy? Can the blood of the practitioner still be used to get magical properties?
5) Can Attunement and Abrogation still weaken or shut off the power of magic in non-spark mages?

This is pretty exciting and I can't wait to see what the players and staff will do with this come February.
My immediate thoughts are spark-sparkless mage rivalry, at least amongst the more snarky or arrogant mages.

[Pig Boy]

Okay this is actually very cool, and I have a ton of questions.

1) How would this play out lore wise? Would the players each individually figure out on their own that non-spark magic is possible and then try out the theory? Or is there going to be a site-wide plot about the first non-spark mages rising up. Non-spark magic would definitely shift the balance of power accross Idalos and I am excited to see what happens regardless.

I'm glad you're enthused about the new thing!

Lorewise, it'll be pcs discovering in various ways, that this is indeed possible. We want pcs to be the driving force in developing these new methods and learning, and however that happens will be decided by the roleplay that occurs I think. There won't be an artificial switch in the form of a global event (at least not this early anyway) that sees this happening. As for why, and the lore of it, that much probably is ripe for speculation and unreliable narration of individual pcs and organizations. Otherwise, we may not explain why it's the case, just that it now is.

2) Thematically how would it preserve the balance of magic? Currently Magic stands in a unique position as it grants great personal power at the expense of great personal risk. From my reading of the write up, it feels as if Non-spark magic is more or less the same, but without all the risks and hazards associated with Spark magic. The major downside I suppose, is that they cannot overstep and force themselves to cast a spell when they are in a pinch, but this feels outweighed by no mutations, the ability to reveal and never overstep.

2b) My first reaction to seeing the upsides and downsides of non-spark magic is the actual cost of getting there, the IC plot threads and personal risks that would be associated in trying to obtain sparkless magic. I assume that the questing for non-spark magic will be just as risky as Spark Initiation? Additionally, what would the PSF involvement look like? Would these threads be solo or with Storyteller involvement.

2. I think due to the requirements of the magics, it would still be rare outside of pcs. Meditation mages need to travel near to fractures, a dangerous activity. researchers delve into forbidden knowledge and may risk going mad as they uncover secrets the mortal mind was not meant to grasp. Ensorcellers deal with wells, which are inherently explosive and dangerous in their own right. So I think on balance it won't impact how many become mages too much.

2a. That is yet to be seen I suppose. We've offered through some of the write-ups that players will psf the results of their magical discovery upon the final thread where they acquire the magic. However arduous that process is will inform the standards we live by I think. But I'd like to see it be a difficult if not arduous journey for any pc to learn magic, if only to not get overcrowded by mages . However we do want to allow them to be soloable, with review by PSF when the plot is complete. How a player wants to fineagle that (whether they'd prefer to hash out details prior to or after the attempted discovery of magic) is largely in their court.

3) Finally what would the skill to magic skill transfer look like? Would a Meditative Mind-Mage (accidental alliteration) who gains their magic at expert, be expert level in their chosen Domain? Since certain utilization of the magics requires knowledge, would they essentially be an expert level mage in the basic powers but novice level in terms of what they can actually do, the utlization.

This is pretty exciting and I can't wait to see what the players and staff will do with this come February.
My immediate thoughts are spark-sparkless mage rivalry, at least amongst the more snarky or arrogant mages.

I'm having a little trouble wrapping my mind around this question? Meditation at expert is meditation at expert. You start from novice as a new mage. Knowledge of that magic must be earned AS a mage. The knowledge gained as a meditator (for your example) would contribute only toward meditation knowledge and skill. Think of learning the new magic as any other skill, you'd learn from the start. Unless you were previously a sparked mage with existing knowledge, then that knowledge transfers, xp must still be spent to increase skill

Hope that answers it!

[Illuvia]

Since non-spark mages cannot overstep, does this mean they simply cannot use abilities that force mages to overstep? I believe some of the higher end abilities say that it's likely that overstepping will occur, and some like transmutation's well crafting say overstepping is inevitable (for higher class wells). I had an inkling that being able to take advantage of these abilities without worrying about failing is the main benefit to being a spark-mage. I'd probably be too scared to use them as a non-spark mage.

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This might be a dumb question, but can any Well of the appropriate tier be used to gain magic? Or does it have to be a specific Well? Also, is the Well destroyed in the process or do you still have it afterwards?

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Is flaying still a thing? I had a vague memory of mages being able to suck out people's souls and had to search the wiki to find info on it. And that page doesn't appear to be linked to anywhere else. If it is still a thing, can non-spark mages do it?

[Pig Boy]

Since non-spark mages cannot overstep, does this mean they simply cannot use abilities that force mages to overstep? I believe some of the higher end abilities say that it's likely that overstepping will occur, and some like transmutation's well crafting say overstepping is inevitable (for higher class wells). I had an inkling that being able to take advantage of these abilities without worrying about failing is the main benefit to being a spark-mage. I'd probably be too scared to use them as a non-spark mage.

Good question. I believe overstepping is still a thing, just that it manifests in a way that the non-spark mage hits a brick wall with varying degrees of force. They either end up with a splitting headache, lose the ability to cast for a while, etc. From this section of the Non-Spark magic guide:

Overstepping for non-spark mages will be their magic stopping working, blinding headaches, passing out - physical / mental overload. Much more intense in the moment, but temporary. The magic doesn't work though. Peer Reviewers: If you'd assign overstepping to a sparky-mage, then the non-spark mage isn't casting.

For specific techniques that say you must necessarily overstep under all circumstances ( I don't believe this is the case but I will give it the benefit of the doubt), that means you run into one of those consequences as a result of doing the technique/spell.

This might be a dumb question, but can any Well of the appropriate tier be used to gain magic? Or does it have to be a specific Well? Also, is the Well destroyed in the process or do you still have it afterwards?

The Learning Domain Magic section of Ensorcelling covers this issue:

"In order to get a single school of magic in this way (regardless of other schools of magic the pc may have gained via other means) then they need to be a Competent Ensorcellor (or above) and must strip a Class 2 Well in order to gain that magic. If they have one Well-Magic and wish to get another, they have to strip a Class 3 well, etc, as identified in the skill levels below. This applies only to the number of Well-Magics the Ensorcellor gains and is not impacted by Domain or other non-spark magics."

Is flaying still a thing? I had a vague memory of mages being able to suck out people's souls and had to search the wiki to find info on it. And that page doesn't appear to be linked to anywhere else. If it is still a thing, can non-spark mages do it?

I believe Flaying is solely an ability imparted by the Spark, and thus not available to non-spark mages.

[Pig Boy]

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This might be a dumb question, but can any Well of the appropriate tier be used to gain magic? Or does it have to be a specific Well? Also, is the Well destroyed in the process or do you still have it afterwards?

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Oh I think I missed the point of this question. No you don't need a specific type of well, so long as it's the appropriate class/level for learning a magic. Thanks for the question, it is not a dumb one.

[Goku]

when I heard about this change I had to take a peek back here. Is there going to be a minimum character age that people can learn magic using research? Someone once told me initiation is out of the question for younger people.
Secondly, would revelations still change the character's state of mind? Aren't personality changes due to the spark kind of taking over?

[Pig Boy]

when I heard about this change I had to take a peek back here. Is there going to be a minimum character age that people can learn magic using research? Someone once told me initiation is out of the question for younger people.

Yes, you still need to be a credible age in order to learn magic. If you read the research method, it's quite strenuous. Maybe a prodigy at age 14 might manage it, but that's stretching it even then. These methods still come with their share of danger, although they're arguably less dangerous than spark initiation, the fact remains that a very young, small child learning magic through these methods will be almost unheard of.

There may be exceptions, but these are usually given a very good and credible reason through lore or the rules.

Secondly, would revelations still change the character's state of mind? Aren't personality changes due to the spark kind of taking over?

I would refer you to this part of the rule on non-domain non-spark magic: here

Specifically this part:

"Non-spark mages can reveal in a magic, this includes all personality and physical changes that come from revelation."

The reasons for this being so may be up to interpretation, however it is the way it is. We may make a change to the revelation page to reflect the inclusion of non-domain/sparkless magics when this goes live and we update the parts that need it. However all physical and mental changes that come from revealing will be in place, should a sparkless mage make it that far in their magic.

Thanks for the questions.