All or nothing [Modded]

[Varlum]

13th Ymiden, 719

"Pier. Pre."

Varlum stood out in the woods, away from everyone that might disturb him. Right now the world didn't matter. Only one thing did. As he waited, Varlum leaned back on a large tree, axe resting at his side. It was unusual for him to pray in any kind of way, especially to Immortals he had a sour taste in the mouth with. He wouldn't pray to Faldrun and that man had done less to him than Pier or Pre had. Being his father and attacking his city was the only crime the Immortal of Fire had committed against Varlum. The twin Immortals, however, had cursed him. Had broken their own beliefs, their own domains of justice and equality, and had done something against his body without asking. After condemning Vri for threatening the same. It was spiteful, pitiful and wrong.

But Varlum couldn't hold on to it. Not right now. He wasn't here to confront them, or he'd have his axe ready. Instead, he wanted to make a deal, one that they owed him from the past. "If you hear me, you promised me a favour once. I need your favour now" he said and closed his eyes for a trill, waiting as no answer came. Perhaps he had to go deeper. "Right now, we can not defeat Ellasin. Whatever I think of you, whatever you think of me - we are fighting the same war. Ellasin is our enemy, even if you are not my ally. Which means right now, we need each other. What happens after this doesn't matter, what happened trials ago doesn't matter. This is now."

With a small sigh, the Ithecal waited. Repeating their names quietly. This was all he had left that he could do, it was the only thing that he could think of. Despite all the hatred he felt towards Vri and the twins, the anger he felt towards a lot of Immortals bar the ones that had helped him, Varlum needed to let it go. At least for right now. He had plans and goals, he had enemies that had been made. But the only enemy in this war was Ellasin. If this favour could be used to help end the war, or even be a favour that could end the war in one blow - then that was what mattered. That was all that mattered.

So he kept praying.

[Pig Boy]

There was no fanfare, no sign to show Varlum that the twins had heard his plea. Instead, the twins seemed to come out of the woodwork, out of his seeing, and spoke to him thus, "Hello son of Turmoil." They said in unison.

"What do you need?" Pier asked him.

"What do you want?" Pre chimed in.

Whatever he had to ask of them, they would move to either side of him, and wait for his request, whatever form it came in.

"You are right that Ellasin cannot be defeated." Pier said, "At least not in the way you've been engaging her."

"That's not to say it's impossilbe." Pre continued for her sister, "There is always a way."

"But cut down the tree, and the roots will be nourished by the fall." Pier ventured, solemnly. "Cut her down, and a hundred ambitious necromancers will crop up in her place, ready to mantle the power her death set aside. Is it really her destruction that Faith seeks?"

"Or is she looking to prove something?" Asked Pre. "If we can help, in any possible way, we will Varlum. I'm truly sorry that we cursed you without consent. It was not our intent to allow it to remain."

"My sister may have pulled back the blessing too swiftly, and left the curse in place of the mark." Pre concluded.

"I only did what was necessary at the time. I didn't expect my intentions to be so thoroughly misunderstood. But then, he's only a Mortalborn."

"Sister!" Pre chastised her twin. "How intemperate of you!"

"Times of trouble make strangers of us all, it seems." Pier shrugged.

[Varlum]

When the sound of Pier and Pre appeared, Varlum glanced up and stopped muttering. For the most part, he listened, waiting for them to finish speaking. What they said of Ellasin was true, something that Varlum had yet to tackle fully. Killing Ellasin was a hard task, but it wasn't enough. Necromancers would always rise to be the next most powerful if they could. Once she fell from greatness there would be hundreds trying to reach her heights. People idolized. It was what they did. Stories of great soldiers made normal men give up their lives to join wars and become the next one. Right now, however, they had one to worry about.

When Pier said her thoughts on his curse, Varlum couldn't help but chuckle to himself. Only a Mortalborn. It was almost amusing to think about how blatantly she held herself above him, as if she had earned that spot. "Just a Mortalborn" he said, with an amused tone before the look broke. His eyes met the woman, then her sister. "Maybe. But nothing about what happened was necessary that trial. Nothing" he said, remembering the pain his friends had endured, let alone his own anger. What happened to him had been unfair, yes. But what had happened to Faith had been unforgivable. Varlum would have killed a man if that had been his child. Thank the Immortals that Faith wasn't Varlum.

The Mortalborn of Faldrun shook his head. It wasn't important right now. Instead, he looked back to the two and returned to the business he had come here for. "You owed me a favour from before when Auya had been saved and I stood judgement. That's one favour each. Then you cursed me. That's another two" he said factually, before looking to Pier specifically, knowing she was the blunter of the two. "Forgive me for demanding more of you than promised. But this war goes beyond me, and these favours bar one go beyond me. I could claim all the personal desires I wanted and ask of them. But I'm not going to. Not when there's so much more at stake than me. So. Four favours - and I want them all. If that's not possible, then I'll give you whatever it takes in return to make it possible. Anything." he said, entirely serious.

Finally, Varlum came to the mental list he had prepared for himself. "I want two weapons. Whatever Padraig and Faith use often. One for each of them. New Truthblades, specifically made to counter whatever the army of the undead throws our way. I've heard of how they fight. They deserve it more than anyone else, especially with all they'll throw themselves at. They need to be equipped and prepared. If they choose to give it to someone else, so be it" he said simply. "Then I want Ellasin, and anyone in her known army, cursed. By you, by anyone. I don't care who. I want every weakness put on them that can be placed. I want their armies to have more disadvantages than any other on Idalos. They go against every aspect of Justice that you stand for, that we stand for. They warrant that curse more than anyone else. I'd ask the same of Ethelynda, if she were here now. I'd ask it of anyone willing to give me it."

Finally, Varlum gave a pained glance. There was a part of him that wanted to ask about the dragons he'd been seeing. His Diri was a dragon, his Mortalborn power wrapped a dragon around him, he had been prophecised when he became a Defender. What was it about him and Dragons, why were they tied? But as much as he craved to know, as much as it might have a chance of helping, it wasn't enough. If Varlum never found out then so be it. So long as they won this war. The Ithecal visibly sighed and looked to the two, eyes not only kinder, but the harsher persona starting to break. It was draining him, all of this. Every offer he made to give his life meant another risk of death, all so he could get a good outcome, and thus far he had yet to have a single outcome he liked.

"Please understand, before I continue, that I only demand so much out of love for the people around me, not out of spite for you. I don't like what you did to me. Truth be told, not that I imagine lying to you is easy, I don't much like you after it. But that will fade. Or perhaps not. Doesn't matter. You are on my side, helping our battle. I am beyond grateful for it. You are not my enemy. Which means you are my ally" he said with a polite nod to them both as he felt a sharp pain in his chest. This favour could be used to check on Auya, or to help him. To give him a chance to see the Blacksmith he had failed to protect, if that was possible. Anything that had been eating at him. Yet he was about to use it for something that, overall, was much more important. But much less important to him. That, in his eyes, was what he had to do. So he did it.

"My final favour is another complicated one, I'm sorry" he said with a weak smile, pushing back the emotions he was feeling. "I want to meet Aeva and any other ally of either Aeva, Ethelynda or Ralaith. Even the Immortals that marked me, if they are listening now. Anyone that will give me their time, so that I can ask for their help. Their armies. Anything to help us win this war and protect Idalos, whatever the cost may be" he asked, knowing how much it was to demand of them. "Please."

[Pig Boy]

"No, it was a terrible error that Vri committed. And terrible about our part in it." Pre frowned, her tone full of contrition.

"Yet the tides of fate may prove it was necessary. It's not our place to say what is and is not, what will or will not be. Ours is only to deliberate on what has passed, and judge."

"Yet, it was a injudicious of us to mark this poor Ithecal with a curse."

Pier said nothing to that, and so the judgment fell to Pre.

She nodded at Varlum, "We will grant your requests, as well we can."

They went on to listen as he listed the boons he asked for. He didn't want personal favors, nothing for himself, only things to make the war easier for his friends to stand against. A noble gesture, Ethelynda would've been proud.

Pre nodded to Pier, and Pier shrugged to Pre. Between the two of them, a stream of silvery blue energy began to coalesce into two objects. At first they appeared almost as constellations, with lines drawn between every angle on them. The view of them became clearer. One was a gladius, unremarkable in appearance. The next was a three-legged stand, something that Padraig could rest his crossbow on. To Varlum's eyes, they were nothing special.

"Here, two weapons near the equal of the truthblade. The gladius functions much as it did, albiet reforged without Vri's influence corrupting it. The three legged stand... Well trust that Padraig will figure it out."

"No time to write a manual for him." Said Pier.

And before they were gone, they waved their hands in unison, and sighed, "There, Ellasin's information brokers will find themselves with a few spare eyes."

Pre smiled at Varlum, "That should help!"

And then they were gone.

So Varlum stood alone for a moment, his favors spent and spent again. He might've considered gathering up the items and moving on, to retrieve them to their new owners. Before he could take another step though, He felt a heavy hand tap on his shoulder.

"I heard you needed some time. I have only a few trills to spare." Ralaith said, and then slipped a strange token into Varlum's hand. He grumbled, "This ought to buy you that much time. Use it wisely, at an opportune moment. Five trills can make a world of difference, you know?"

Before Varlum could turn around to see him, he was gone as well.

Off-topic

I will write up the item descriptions and powers when I sign off on this thread. I'll give you one more post here before I either intervene again or post a review with the info."

[Varlum]

It had been a long shot, asking so much of two immortals he had little respect for. Varlum could have offended them by demanding so much, or perhaps been given near to nothing. But that wasn't how it had worked out. For the while, his respect for the two Immortals returned, though he hadn't forgotten what they had done. At the very least, however, they had helped the war effort in a way he could never truly thank them for. Personal disagreements aside, they were strong allies to have. That was more important now than any wrongdoings they had done before.

As Varlum thought of the potential of the items, he glanced up to the two Immortals, giving a relieved sigh and nodding to them both. It was an overwhelming realisation. Part of why he had demanded so much was that they might shoot down some of it. Yet now, he held two artifacts - and Ellasin's army had a crippling disadvantage. He scarcely had time to find the words before the two twins had vanished, leaving him alone for a few trills. "Thank you, both of you" he muttered quietly under his breath.

Yet the favours weren't complete, Varlum turning at the feeling of a hand on his shoulder and looking to where Ralaith should have been with a confused glance. It took a moment, but he understood. At least he thought he did. Yet, as Pier and Pre had done, Ralaith left without an explanation. All that was left behind was the token in his hand, something that Varlum imagined would give him a brief moment to pause time for all but himself. Or perhaps it would speed him up to all around him but slow everything down for everyone else. Whatever it did, it would prove useful. Every advantage they had was important. This trial had potentially given them more advantages than they could have ever hoped for. If they could obtain one of the cursed that worked under Ellasin then they had everything they needed. Information, weapons to stop her - and a big fucking army.

As he knelt down and placed a hand on the Gladius, looking over the blade, Varlum closed his eyes for a moment. "If any other Immortal can listen, I know I have demanded plenty. But know that I don't ask for it out of my own sake. But for the world. If you can spare me anything, big or small, I will forever be grateful to you. Some of you have protected me before. Ethelynda and Aeva both. Let me protect you, and all of Idalos, now" he offered before a warm smile spread across his face. "Pier, Pre and Ralaith - thank you for what you offer me now. I'll put it to good use, you have my word. I won't let any of you down. None of you."

"I will kill Ellasin, and her entire Coven, or I will die so that others can do it for me" he assured before finally opening his eyes again, collecting his items before focusing on Zuudaria and making his way there. It never quite felt normal, transporting himself as often as he had been. It wasn't something he had done prior, staying grounded in Rharne was his speciality after all. Even when he did travel, it was often by carriage or walking. He had to admit, though, that arriving in Uthaldria would have taken much longer if he had walked.

As soon as he arrived, Varlum stood himself up straight and looked around until he found Faith. She was hard to miss, despite the size difference. Both from her appearance and her mannerisms. There weren't many people in Idalos who compared in posture to the young woman. Beside her was an equally hard to miss character, Padraig. Varlum had an incredible respect for the man. He was both an amazing fighter and an incredible man overall, from all the stories he had heard and what he had seen thus far. Him and Faith deserved one another, both of them were the best at what they did, both in skill and morals.

As he walked in, Varlum placed down the stand, the token and the Gladius on the table. "I'm sorry if you're busy, but this is important" he said simply, glancing to the two and giving a small nod to them both. Now of all times, friendly hellos weren't necessary. Once he had their attention he picked up the sword, clearly designed for someone smaller than himself - offering it out to Faith. "Seasons ago, the woman I loved died. I wasn't there, but when I slept at night I awoke in another place - and she was held on trial. Either she would suffer eternally for her past sins, or she would find a peaceful death. I had to argue on her behalf, and I did as best I could. I gathered Vri, Pier and Pre's attention and they owed me a favour after what I did, to help them" he told, the words he said to Vri likely making sense to Faith when they had met him a few trials ago, of their history.

"So when Pier and Pre cursed me, I added another favour to that list - and you're looking at those favours" he admitted. "Ralaith gave me this coin, told me it could buy me a few trills. I imagine it has something to do with pausing time for all but me, or anything along those lines. As for the sword...the old Truthblade is useless. So I got you a new one, designed just for you, Faith. The stand is for you, Padraig. The twins told me that you could make use of it, that you'd figure it out. It was another artifact, or so I assume, seeing as I asked for one for the both of you."

Once he was done explaining that, he took a small breath before chuckling to himself with a level of pride. "And, Pier and Pre have cursed Ellasin's informants with the same curse they gave me. All of them."

[Faith Augustin]

They were, when Varlum arrived, training. There was going to be a fight, they all knew it - and there already had been enough conflict. So, they practised each trial. Faith was currently training with her gladius; Alissa, her bodyguard (or one of them, Faith thought with a roll of the eyes) had insisted - every trial, they trained even if it was only for an hour. Because they had to be ready and, also, because they needed to have some head-space too. So, Faith was training. She was naturally light on her feet and Alissa constantly, consistently, kept on at her to adjust her stance, not drop her elbow. Faith was a fine swordswoman, although she did not think herself such, but still Alissa was starting to irritate her. Alissa, for her part, knew just that and so she pushed Faith just a little more. At the point that Varlum saw them - though Faith did not see him - she was just starting to think about kicking Alissa in the shin, but she recognised that she was being, perhaps, just a touch emotional in her response. Alissa kept pushing though, just a quick flick of the wrist here, a soft but arrogant smile there. She knew how to wind Faith up, and it was working. Which meant, of course, that Faith over extended and Alissa took complete and immediate advantage of it. She felt her weight shifting as she distributed it too far forward and heard Alissa chuckling. Faith sighed and looked up.

With a slight smile, Faith considered that she'd never been quite so pleased to see Varlum as she was right in this moment. She gave Alissa a glare and then grinned. Looking at Varlum, Faith realised that he had things in his arms and his expression - as much as she could read it - seemed more than a little serious. "Alissa, we're going into the next room, could you make sure we're not disturbed please?" Alissa knew what that meant and she nodded. Faith glanced at Padraig as the pair of them moved. Faith gestured to Varlum, "In here, Varlum, please?" Since the situation which had occurred with both Patrick and Maxine.

Alissa made sure that there was no one interrupting them, and so the three of them were in the small side-room when Varlum spoke. There was no hello, no chit-chat between them. So, Faith listened carefully and watched what he was explaining. And what he explained was amazing to her. Faith's expression was one of concentration, her memory of what Varlum had said to Vri now making sense.

Once he had finished, Faith ignored the items for a moment and she moved over to Varlum. One small hand on the enormous ithecal and Faith looked up at him. Her eyes were filled with emotion and her voice shook just a little as she spoke. "I do not have the words to thank you, Varlum. What you've done, I... thank you. So very much."

She took hold of the blade and Faith smiled, softly. "This is... Varlum, it's.." Faith had a bit of a tendency to not really do emotions, yet she and Varlum had shared an experience unlike anything. "When it happened," Faith said - Padraig knew what she meant. What had happened with Vri, Ralaith and the twins was not something Faith could talk about - she might never. "Varlum offered his memories, all of them, everything he had, if Vri just brought her back." Her voice shook with emotion as she spoke of their daughter, Rose, and she did what she would always do. She made it factual, stuck to what she could measure, what was in front of them. "This is a beautiful sword. Padraig and I were on U'frek's boat, on the way to Ne'haer, when we went in search of a weapon for me. I was still Tristan's slave, but Padraig made sure I had a weapon." It was just words, she knew. Words, facts, statements - things which meant that she didn't have to have emotions.

And as for the curse? Faith nodded. That was huge. "That means that they have extra eyes on their head. And that they are compelled to tell the truth. Varlum. I..." She couldn't say any more so Faith turned to Padraig, sure that he would step in - because in that moment she needed him to and he was always there when that happened.

[Padraig]

Prior to Varlum's arrival, Padraig had been making a halfhearted effort at target practice. Not that the obstacles to maintaining a sufficient amount focus, was his own design. In fact if there was anyone to blame, it was the two men on either side of him, who were getting in some practice of their own. But each of them was struggling. Their skills weren't so much the problem, though, as it was stress induced fatigue. They weren't alone. Everyone present had been under an enormous amount of pressure lately, and a few appeared to be fraying at the edges.

Peering at the distant wooden bullseye with crossbow raised and ready to fire, he grinned only slightly when his nearest neighbor cursed at his own poor luck and tossed his bow on the ground. "Trouble?" Padraig asked quietly while squeezing off his own shot. Every fate in existence was aligned against him that trial, the younger man said, and he couldn't have hit the side of a barge if he had to. "It's not your level of your skill or your grasp of the fundamentals," Padraig said while lowering his bow and standing back. That much was stating the obvious, however. The man standing next to him was an expert marksman. "You're wound up like a spring, and you're overthinking it."

Too much focus on here, Padraig explained, tapping a fingertip on his temple, and then placed his palm across his own gut, "and not here. If an understanding of the fundamentals were the only thing that mattered, then no master archer would be any different than another. None better, none worse, and they'd all be indistinguishable one from the other. It's the instinct, the feeling your way through a shot, knowing when to take it, when not to. Anticipation,, those are the things that make the difference."

Added to that, Padraig couldn't help but observe, the man...as he'd said before, was wound up like a spring. "You're tense from the top of your head to your toes. You've got a finely made weapon there but all crossbows have a kick to some extent or another. You should be absorbing that push back, from hand to elbow, arm to shoulder, shoulder to torso and so on. You're taking it all in the hand, the forearm, and it's knocking your shot off target." Truth was, he was glad when Varlum showed up and gave him an excuse to pardon himself and withdraw.

"It's good to see you again, Varlum," he said, smiling as he joined the pair. Varlum, Padraig thought, was possibly the most noble of individuals that he'd ever met. On top of that, he liked him on a more personal level. It was good, for allies to also be trusted friends. They needed all of those they could get. And apparently Varlum had a lot to tell them. He'd brought a number of items with him as well, and Padraig eyed them curiously before turning his attention to all what was said.

What was there to say, but thank you? What words, no matter how many or how few would be enough to properly communicate how grateful both he and Faith were? There weren't any, but nonetheless, Padraig uttered, "Words aren't sufficient, but thank you Varlum," he said, reaching out, or up since this was one very tall individual, to grip the man's arm in a companionable fashion. Thanks for what Varlum had said himself about what he had done, and what Faith had elaborated on.

The sword, the token, the curious stand, all seemed a wonder, considering that each had come by way of one Immortal or another. As for the stand itself? It reminded him of one of the mounts he used for the smaller of his spyglasses or telescopes, but surely in this case, it was much more than that. He leaned closer and eyed it curiously. Certainly as Varlum said, it's true purpose would become clear. After all, a simple stand, mount or tripod would be a rather pedestrian thing, to be referred to as an artifact brought by the gods. "It looks like I might use it as a mount for a bow, maybe add a scope of some kind. I think," he added with a grin as he straightened, "It will probably reveal it's true nature and purpose in it's own good time."

[Varlum]

Watching as the two trained, Varlum gave them the moment they needed before following Faith into the side room and explaining everything to them. It was a lot for them to take in suddenly, there was no doubt of that. Varlum was feeling it too. When he had gone to Pier and Pre he had no idea what to expect. Yet here he stood, with artifacts and enemies that were now cursed. At any moment, the man could have asked for a favour for himself. To see Auya again for a while, to give himself a new weapon or to enhance the one he currently had. But that wasn't Varlum. Not when his friends needed him so direly, when they had endured so much at his side. They had a near unfixable problem, yet Varlum was one of the few people with a solution. Of course he would use it to help them, even if it cost him personal gain.

When Faith and Padraig came to his side, Varlum gave them both a small smile, putting his hand on the back of each as Faith told Padraig what Varlum had offered. Yet for a moment, his heart ached. That was a favour he wanted to ask for so dearly, maybe even to spend all of his favours on it. If they hadn't been at war he might have done just that. But right now, bringing back Rose wouldn't change anything. Not if Ellasin won. They had to be smart and focus on the battle at hand, no matter what it would cost them for the time being. Yet he felt guilt. Of all the gifts he gave them, none would have compared to their daughter back. With a small glance to them both, Varlum let his face show the sadness as Faith talked about what Varlum had offered.

"Once this is over, I'll offer it all again, if that's what it takes. I promise you" he said before moving his hands away from the two and letting himself relax for a trill. Once he had caught his breath again, Varlum glanced to the blade as it was in Faith's hand before letting a light smile cover his face. "It suits you. I don't doubt you'll put it to good use" he said before watching Padraig as he looked at the stand, giving the man a chuckle as he explained what he imagined what it might be used for. "Well, if anyone can figure it out, I'm sure you're the one who can."

With a small nod to the two, Varlum stepped to face them both and knelt down on one knee. "Unless there is anything else I can help you with, I'll make my return to Uthaldria and get back to work. I've been training every trial I can, I don't plan on breaking that streak now. But, if I may advise. We ought to find one of those informants, if we can, and bring them in. If they know a place that we can go, somewhere vulnerable, we can end this war before it grows anymore out of control" he said with a nod to them both, knowing they were more tactical than he would ever be. Carefully, the Ithecal stood up and gave one last pat on the shoulder to each of his friends. "Both of you stay safe."

With those words, he picked up his token to Ralaith from the table and walked out.

[Pig Boy]

Varlum

Points

15/15 These points may not be used for domain magic.

Knowledge

Etiquette: Putting the needs of others before your own is a noble gesture.
Etiquette: How to hold oneself in the presence of Immortals.
Etiquette: Proper speech and posture can go a ways to making oneself belong in a situation.
Rhetoric: Making a decent argument.
Rhetoric: Making an impassioned plea on behalf of the world.
Persuasion: Persuading the Immortals to return a favor, immediately.
Psychology: The Immortals have differences of opinions, even while on the same side.
Psychology: The Immortals are more or less ruled by their natures.
Tactics: Realizing that the odds are overwhelming, and you're going to lose.

Loot/losses

Ralaith's Trill Nickel: This can buy you time, five trills to be exact. To do whatever you wish, affect whatever you wish. You can turn back the clock five trills for everyone or anyone, including yourself, freeze time for five trills for anyone and everyone including yourself.

Wealth

no

Renown

5

Padraig

Points

15/15 These points may not be used for domain magic.

Knowledge

Combat: Ranged (Crossbow): The Trilogy Caster: You probably won't miss much anymore, as long as you use this.
Physics: Bending light is easy for the Immortals.
Physics: Altering gravity isn't hard for the Immortals either.
Physics: Why did the Immortals even Invent physics?
Rhetoric: Counterpoint: The Immortals must not have invented physics.
Tactics: The Trilogy Caster: A great resource in hilly terrain.

Loot/losses

The Trilogy Caster (Tripod of Pre and Pier): This tripod, when a scope or crossbow (or scoped crossbow) are placed on it, can alter it's path three ways before it's view/projectile finds its mark. As long as there's nothing obstructing the path of the projectile and open area to move around, it can always reach it's target, but still depends on the skill and ability of both the target and the marksman.

Wealth

no

Renown

5

Faith

Points

15/15 These points may not be used for domain magic.

Knowledge

Caregiving: Saying thanks properly is a great way to show your family that you love them.
Etiquette: Showing grace when you've been given a great boon.
Socialization: Ithecal hugs are good, if scaley.
Socialization: Varlum: Big Huge Softy.
Socialization: Varlum: Gave you a second chance to wield the Truthblade.
Socialization: To give is genius. To receive isn't bad either.

Loot/losses

Truth Blade: wiki/index.php?title=Category:Truthblade

Wealth

no

Renown

5

Comments: Well, Varlum really came through, didn't he? This was a fun thread as always, I enjoy an opportunity to play Pre and Pier, they can be so sassy and interesting.

If you have any questions or concerns about this review, please let me know.

!	Message from: Pig Boy
	Many of Ellasin's information brokers (her case agents who are responsible for handling various assets) have developed extra sets of eyeballs. If you see anyone like that from this point, it's a fair bet they are one of them. If they say they aren't, well...